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Posts - After Midterm


To: laneonline@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 06:57:35 -0000
Subject: [Lane Online] Midterm - Philo 5

Midterm

http://www.guardian72.com/homework/PHILO5/midterm/

--Rick Wagner
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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 06:56:54 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Midterm

Midterm

http://www.guardian72.com/homework/PHILO5/midterm/

--Rick
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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:52:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Re: what words mean



--- George Walton <iambiguously@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Smallie,
>
[. . .]
> The crucial point for me isn't that reality will
> always be the same however we perceive it as
> individuals but that reality can change profoundly
> for
> each of us depending precisely ON how each of us
> acts
> out our own perceptions of it.

I'll agree that our perceptions govern our world, just
as Wittgenstein said that "The limits of my language
are the limits of my world."  But what we're
discussing is an "interpretation" of reality, not
reality itself.  By separation our perceptions from
what they represent, you place yourself in the
position of one who uses abstraction to create their
own definitions.

> If you sit in a room and ask 10 people to encompass
> an
> expository rendition of abortion you will probably
> get
> 10 answers more or less the same. It is not likely,
> in
> other words, that someone will say that, as a
> procedure, abortion involves harvesting grapes. But
> if
> you ask them to encompass a moral rendition, you
> will
> probably garner many conflicting renditions. So, in
> knowing what an abortion IS [something independent
> of
> our individual opinions] it does not lead anyone to
> the most reasonable or ethical conclusions regarding
> whether it is moral or immoral to perform or receive
> one.
>
> Philosophy, in other words, like science, is utterly
> futile in confronting the moral parameters of any
> human social interactions. And it makes no
> difference
> whatsoever as to what, materially, reality is.

Biggie, if you tell me I can fly, I'm not going to
jump off the roof of my house.  What reality is has
the greatest bearing on my behavior.  My reality is
comprised of the actions of others, and I in some way
react to that.  In the same way that gravity works, my
interactions with society has a reality to it.

If you are trying to create absolutes, you'll never
succeed.  Heisenberg told us that we can't know
everything, and I agree with him.  Language is
slippery and G. E. Moore was somewhat annoying.

As for philosophy in the realm of morality, again, we
can not create absolutes.  The factors that make up
situations are many and complex.  But philosophy does
aid in insight.

Smallie

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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 21:04:19 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] My Engine of Reason is Overheating



I've just finished Churchland's book.

People hate change, don't they?  What Paul Churchland suggests is
right up there with Martin Luther.  Churchland reaches into our minds,
rips out whatever understanding we have of how we think, shoots it,
and then starts to tell us what's going on.  He's tentative, knowing
full well that the brilliant definition of today is the laughable myth
of tomorrow.  But as the pendulum swings, it comes closer and closer
to finding the true center.

For some, what is in their mind is an immaterial soul.  Churchland is
hesistant to deny us that, but he does.  By making conciousness a
matter of the greater ability of our mind over animals, by removing
the non-physical "vital force" from out body, by showing the
development of "self", and its destruction through disease and injury.
These ideas discredit the immaterial soul as a continuation of the
individual.  After reeling through my existential teenage years, I
understand magnitude of this concept.  But as someone who can only
hope to live the greatest life I can while I'm alive, I accept it.

To see more clearly into my mind gives me a greater chance to know
myself.  My respect for Ramana and Chand has increased, not for any
spiritual or supernatural insight they may have had, but for what they
have learned about thought and conciousness.

I went to a presentation at The Neurosciences Institute some time
back, and watched a presentation by Dr. Jeffrey L. Krichmar and his
work on using real world devices to model brain activity.  The Engine
of Reason is now seven years old.  If Churchland revised it, I'm sure
Dr. Krichmar's work will be included.  It combines to neural networks
of taste, motion, vision, and others.  The possibilities are stunning,
scary, but stunning.
http://vesicle.nsi.edu/nomad/
http://www.nsi.edu/

I'm staring down the barrels of Dennett's book now.  I have no clue
what waits, but I suspect it will leave me reeling.

--Rick

To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 13:34:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Against Vegitarian



--- eopsstudent <eopsstudent@yahoo.com> wrote:
> According to bible cows and sheep been used as
> living sacrifice to
> God. Cows and sheep were slaughter when a man has
> committed crime
> against God. Even God gave us the right to raise
> certain animals
> such as cow and sheep and use them as food source.

God gave you the right to raise an animal as food. . .
What about the Hindus, who say that the cow is
sacred?    Why just cows and sheep, weren't we given
domain over all the beasts?  OK, it was only the
Western God who said that--Eastern gods have different
rules.

> Like human
> animals those animal exists because of their duty.
> For instance,
> cows were raised for farm use and when they get old
> uses them as
> food. We are not eating beef for just for the taste
> we are eating
> beef because our ancestors have been eating and they
> had no problems
> too their digesting system. You mention that we do
> not eat dolphins
> because they are more akin to us. I disagree with
> your opinion; we
> do not eat dolphins because they are unclean to eat
> according Bible.
No, YOU don't eat dolphins because the Bible says
their unclean.  Don't assume because I have similar
behaviors as you, that I have them for the same
reasons.

I don't eat dolphins for a variety of reasons, but
partially because they're carnivores, and partially
because they appear to have a relatively high level of
consciousness.

> Also, if we run out of food we will eat anything. I
> want to think
> more reality if there was more advance creature on
> the universe and
> they were searching for new food source. They will
> not eat human
> instead they will make us slave because it will be
> more productive.
> We can not think animals like human being they are
> not meant be like
> us.
> Hunting is more abusing animals than eating cows and
> sheep. It may
> be one of the popular sports, but this will disturb
> wild life. Back
> in history hunting was finding food and protecting
> wild animals from
> human. If the wild animals does not bother us let
> them live under
> laws of wild life

So when cows and sheep were "put" on this planet, they
were inside of pens and cages?  Don't you suppose they
might have been wild and free to start with, and then
we realized they could be herded, thus saving us the
trouble of hunting them down to kill them?

I will admit to hunting.  I will also admit to being a
poor hunter and not killing anything.  But I will say
that I felt a much stronger right to eating an animal
after I'd hiked all over the hills carrying a rifle
looking for it, then I ever have sitting on my ass in
a restaraunt.

Maybe we should turn all the cows loose.  McDonalds
could have the McHunting Range.  If you wanted a Big
Mac, you would rent a rifle, find your cow, kill it,
gut it, drag it back to the McButcher, and he'd grind
up your hamburger.  How many quarter pounders could
you get out of an 800 lb. cow?

--Rick

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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 05:22:24 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Re: what words mean



Biggie

Contradictions in terms?  Abortion is certainly contrary to a
particular period of time, and philosophy is critical of all assumed
meanings.

Reality will be the same, no matter how I refer to it.  Perhaps
Shakespeare was kicking the whole thing off with his rose comment--he
was rather intimate with the language.  And perhaps Plato's ideal
forms were merely a result of our having developed words to describe
general cases, a means of abstracting.  My sacrilegious soul enjoys
the idea of Christianity getting its start out of our ability to call
two different types of dog, dog.

Smallie
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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 04:00:58 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Re: what words mean



--- In msacphilosophygroup@y..., "iambiguously" <iambiguously@y...> wrote:
> If I say that the meaning of life is meaningless...what does that
> mean?
>
> Biggie

42 has no assigned value in our language system.

Smallie

To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 03:48:18 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] History of the Golden Rule



Confucius (500 B.C.): "What you do not want done to yourself, do not
do to others.''

Aristotle (325 B.C.): "We should behave to others as we wish others to
behave to us.''

From the Mahabharata (200 B.C.): "Do nothing to thy neighbor which
thou wouldst not have him do to thee thereafter.''

Jesus (30 A.D.): "As ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to
them likewise.''

The Golden Rule is such a general concept that I am not going to claim
that each of these statements came from the one before it.  But
perhaps it should go into my Universal Truths pile.  And perhaps other
may see that Jesus may only have been the mouthpiece for ideas that
existed before him
--Rick
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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 03:05:25 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] "I just want to be special" vs. Evolution



People are so afraid, so scared they might be just a sack of meat.
They look at monkeys and say "I'm not like THAT."  Yeah, well your DNA
says you are--98%.  And you even have a little tail coming off the
back of your pelvis.  What do you think happened, God didn't want to
start over?  So he cut & pasted from one to the other?  Point and
click, add intelligence, humans are up and running.

Am I saying that we are no better than animals?  Not hardly.  To
paraphrase Neal Stephenson, a human being is a studpendous bad-ass,
descended from a long line of stupendous bad-asses.  Only the most
stupendous managed to continue, the rest died out.  We are the
greatest things going on this planet.  We may not do the greatest
things, but some of us do.

Pascal's wager says we should believe in God to be on the safe side.
Wagner's Wager says we should live our lives to the fullest, because
all the evidence points to a sudden stop at the end.

What kind of petulant, childish deity, is going to hold back
forgiveness to outsiders?  What God will tell a Nepalese goat herder
that he's denied eternal salvation because he didn't take Jesus into
his soul, but let Jim Bakker sip daquiries in Heaven while fondling
Jessica Hahn's ass.  None that I would kneel to.

But if I'm right, the religious lose their exclusive right to
salvation.  Tough.  If you don't allow Hindus, Muslims, and Jews into
your club, I don't want to play.  Do you have any idea how quickly I'd
lose my mind hanging around a single religious group?  I don't mind
being wrong, but don't make me spend enternity with the Heaven's Gate
Cultists.

Organized religion needs exclusivity to propagate.  It can't just say
it's the "best", it has to say it's the "only".  Religions aren't like
gas stations, Texaco may say your car will run better, but Catholicism
says that if you fill up with Judaism, your car will burn forever.

You want to know what some Universal Truths are?
The Earth is round.
The Earth orbits the Sun.
Matter is composed of atoms.
Force is equal to mass times aceleration.
Bleeding people to improve their health is a bad idea.

The more of these we can agree to, the better the world will be.

So you're not special.  So humans are almost, but not quite, just like
every other creature on this planet.  Deal with it.

Live Now

Rick Wagner


To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:25:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Churchland vs. Ramana



>
> Secondly, as Ramana felt no need to manipulate his
> body in order to
> conquer a tumor on his arm, Faqir states, "When our
> mind does not
> have any more questions or when your mind has no
> desire to know
> anything, it becomes silent. This state of silent is
> known as the
> union of Guru and disciple."
> It seems both men agree that once the mind has
> answered its
> questions, one can have peace with oneself.  There
> is no more need
> to fight against the body.
>
>
The big question hanging there is: "COULD Ramana
conquer a tumor?"  Did he have enough control over his
body to heal a cancerous growth?  If so, why did he
allow to start?  Why would the "perfect bodies" of
gurus be subject to disease?
I'm a little skeptical.  No, I'm HUGELY skeptical that
someone can control the cells of their body to that
extent, through willpower alone.  If they only die
when they chose to leave this existence, how does
their lifespan compare to us mere mortals?  I'd like
to see a comparison of low-stress, vegetarian,
non-gurus, and gurus.  I'm willing to the gurus
"choose" to leave about the same time the non-gurus
are "forced" out.

Just because his disciples believe that his death was
his choice, and his state of health was entirely under
his control, doesn't make it true.  Why did he allow
doctors to perform any work at all?

Now that I'm deep into The Engine of Reason, the Seat
of the Soul, I'm going to say that meditation is a way
of working with the recurrent neural pathways.  Ramana
(and others), was adept at creating a feedback loop
ascending from the intralaminar nucleus to cortex, and
then descending back to the intralaminar nucleus.  So
far as I know, this is conjecture on my part.  This
was used as a possible explanation of schizophrenic
hallucination.  I'm starting to think that meditation
is a means of controlling this.

This "self hallucination" may be a great form of
introspection, and a wonderful means of honing the
mind, but it lacks a key feature of life--not just
humans, ALL life--interaction with the outside world.
By claiming that we need to focus on the inner world,
we take importance away from the outside world.  And
self-hallucination reminds of another activity that I
can do by myself, but I much prefer a partner for.

I learned transcendental meditation at an early age,
and still practice it (through rarely).  The more I
learn about neuroscience, the evolution of human
beings  that interact with their environment, and
human social development, the more suspicious I am of
purely introspective activity.

I think Ramana got to know his mind, and the nature of
thought, very well.  But I also believe that he did
not find any supernatural knowledge.  And by assuming
that he could "conquer" a tumor, we may be assigning
him powers greater than the physical realm.

I don't know if the original poster actually agreed
with those who think Ramana had complete control over
his physical aspect, so this is not a dig the poster.
But I want us to question such paranormal claims, and
possibly to learn about how we think.

--Rick

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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:41:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Re: How does science differ from religion.?"



> > A = Not B therefore
> > Not A = B
> >
> > --Rick
> Rick, are you saying,
> "if A is not B therefore NOT A is B" is a true
> statement?
> Well, not always. NOT A could be C or D or whatever,
> not always B.
>
>
>
You're right, it was a smart-ass way to make to a
point.
However, it is appropriate if you're working with
boolean variables--True or False only.
A = False
B = True
A = Not B -> False = Not True
Not A = B -> Not False = True

--Rick

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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 06:20:58 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Re: How does science differ from religion.?"



--- In msacphilosophygroup@y..., "sweetandtastyforyou"
<Lorena.R.Ramirez@k...> wrote:
> This is a great question?
> They are both man made. Science will always try to create a answer to
> things that make a religouse person belief. But having a religion is
> mainly just faith. We beleive in things that we can't see. But
> science will never understand that.They will always try to create a
> answer.

Do you think the term "find an answer" would be more appropriate?
"Create an answer" implies that scientists are making things up.
Science does start with a hypothesis, but it's research that proves
it.  What about the answers science does find?  If you believe in
things you can't see, does that mean that you don't believe in things
you can see?

A = Not B therefore
Not A = B

--Rick
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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 05:29:47 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] On a lighter note . . .



Britney's Guide to Semiconductor Physics

http://britneyspears.ac/lasers.htm

This is lighter than Looking at Philosophy.  Britney describing
quantum states, sweet.  Check out the wallpaper.  There's a famous
photo of Einstein, Curie, Dirac, Bohr, Planck, and others, with
Britney in the front row.

If you hunt around on the net, you'll also find a site for MC Hawking.
They sell shirts with logos like  "You down with Entropy?".

Enjoy,
Rick
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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 21:39:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Will anyone help me please?



Kathy,
  I don't know whose site you were checking out, but
Lyndsay has all of her posts on one page at
http://www.geocities.com/lilrainone/ (I have something
very similar at
http://www.guardian72.com/homework/PHILO5/)
She didn't create a link to one of her posts, she cut
and pasted part of the information into a document,
saved that document as html, and uploaded it to her
website.  Then you only a single link to one document
containing all of your posts.
  I looked at your site.  Looks like you saved the
entire page with your post on it, then linked to it.
  If you look through the groups for threaded
conversation between myself and lilrainone, you may
find some useful information.  Or you could check out
the posts on our websites.

Good Luck
Rick

--- lady91741 <lady91741@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi.  I was wondering if there is anyone using
> Angelfire that has
> created their links.  I cannot figure out how to get
> all of my
> postings onto my website without having to make a
> different link for
> each of them.  I saw someone's website that had all
> of her postings
> in one nice link.  I want to be able to click on "my
> postings" and go
> directly to all of my postings.  Can someone please
> come to my
> rescue???  I've been sitting here for probably 3
> hours, and it's
> probably not even hard.  Thank you.
>
>


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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 19:50:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Science is not a Religion
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com



> How can we know
> anything for certain? I put my belief in gravity
> much in the same way
> I put my belief in God. Ultimatly, science is just
> another religion.
> Amy Wasson

How we define thing is critical, as we know that our
language shapes our world. 

You may "believe" in gravity, but science does not.
Science has evidence to support the existence of
gravity--if something better comes along, science will
change.  There is evidence against a world wide flood,
but many believers refuse to accept it--along with the
continuous evolution of viruses and bacteria to fight
our medicines.

Richard Dawkins gives a great lecture on this:
Is Science a Religion?
http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/articles/dawkins.html

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To: laneonline@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 23:55:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [Lane Online] Website Question...yet again :)
Reply-to: laneonline@yahoogroups.com



Lyndsay,
   Did you upload the file to your website after you
edited it?  Does it have the same name as the one
before-"lyndsayspostings.html".  Sometimes geocities
will rename it.  Check in the File Manager.

--Rick


--- lilrainone <lilrainone@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hopefully Rick reads this soon, since the midterm is
> due Sunday..
>
> I was just wondering if you would know: when I add
> more postings to
> my Word document since I was able to correctly link
> it they aren't
> showing up when you hit the link from my page out of
> PageBuilder. 
> Actually, they aren't even there when I am in
> PageBuilder.
> So, what I mean is...I have pasted more postings
> onto my Word
> Document, saved them, and then gone to the site even
> a day later and
> it doesn't show them when you click the "my
> postings" link.
> Have I missed a step?
>
> --Lyndsay
>
>


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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 08:07:21 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Thoughts on reality
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com



Quantum mechanics tells us that the harder we look, the less we can
know.  We have a choice: we can know where something is, but not where
it's going.  Or we can know where it's going, but not where it is.

So we can't know everything.  And if our knowledge will never be
complete, we are incapable of building an absolute prediction of the
future.

http://www.foolquest.com/metaphysics_for_dummies.htm  

http://www.btinternet.com/~d.p.rowbottom/qmrealism.htm

http://www.friesian.com/space-2.htm

http://www.integralscience.org/sacredscience/SS_quantum.html

To: laneonline@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 13:54:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Lane Online] Problem solved!
Reply-to: laneonline@yahoogroups.com



Lyndsay,
  When you point a web browser (Internet Explorer,
Netscape) to a website, unless you give it a specific
page, it looks for an index.  This is a hold over from
a long, long time ago. Like when we were teenagers.

You have two pages you've been editing.  The one I
see, becuase I go to
http://www.geocities.com/lilrainone/, is this one
http://www.geocities.com/lilrainone/index.html

The last one you made was here
http://www.geocities.com/lilrainone/mypage.html

And it has link to
http://www.geocities.com/lilrainone/lyndsayspostings.html

Rename mypage.html to index.html, and overwrite the
original index, and you're set!

Starting to get it?
Unless I specifically tell my browser to look at
http://www.geocities.com/lilrainone/mypage.html, it's
going to go to
http://www.geocities.com/lilrainone/index.html,

If you use subdirectories, you put index files in them
as your main pages.  Take a look here, this is a
directory without an index, all you get is list of
files - http://www.guardian72.com/homework/CISC192/

Unlike http://www.guardian72.com/homework/PHILO5/
which an index.html file that your browser is reading.

Better?
Rick

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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 13:33:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [MSAC Philosophy Group] History of quantum mechanics
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com



The realm of quantum mechanics is so far removed from
human experience that we've spent a lot of time
figuring out how we test our theories.

Rutherford discovered the nucleus of the atom in 1909,
and ever since we've been building theories and ideas
about something we cannot directly observe.
Amazingly, our second hand knowledge of atomic
particle has been proven to be very accurate.

Here's a way to model you own atom, something to play
with when the boss isn't looking.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/tryit/atom/

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To: laneonline@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:57:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Lane Online] Deleted a page?
Reply-to: laneonline@yahoogroups.com



> So, I deleted the "postings.html" page that I had
the link going to originally.
Your new page wasn't named "postings.html" was it?
Any chance you deleted what you uploaded?  And if you
did, don't feel stupid.  I've wiped out my entire
website by putting the wrong index page in the wrong
spot.

Help me visuallize here.  In your File Manager in
geocities, you should have a few files, one called
"index.html" and one called something else, like your
original blank "postings.html".

Now, I can tell you that your main page, index.html,
has a link to postings.html.  Since that's the link
you need to edit, maybe it's not saving when you exit?
Try typing in the whole address to the page you
uploaded into your address bar, i.e.,
www.geocities.com/lilrainone/whatever.html.

Also, check in the File Manager to make sure your new
page was put in a subdirectory.

You're getting there.  You can make a web page, you
can upload it to the server.  Now you just need to
bring it together.

--Rick


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To: laneonline@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:05:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [Lane Online] one more web site question
Reply-to: laneonline@yahoogroups.com



Lyndsay,
   Two ways. 
   One-I'm using Word 2000, and under the File menu,
right below Save As, is an additional menu item, Save
as Web Page.  If you can't see it, there may be little
chevrons at the bottom of your menu, click on those to
get the entire menu.
   Two-When you click on Save As, the bottom of the
window-where you select where you're going to save
it-right below the name, is a box that says Save As
Type, if you use the drop-down menu there, change it
to Web Page.
   I hope you're using Word 2000, because I don't know
if these features were included in previous versions.
If you had to, you can create pages in note pad, using
just a little bit of HTML, but if the word processor
you're using can do it, it makes it that much easier.
You can also add hyperlinks in Word.

If you're not using Word 2000, you can create new
pages in the Basic Editor on geocities, and cut and
paste the body of your document into there.

Please don't apologize for asking questions.
Ignorance of something is understandable.  Refusing to
learn is different.

--Rick




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To: laneonline@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 20:25:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [Lane Online] another web site question :)
Reply-to: laneonline@yahoogroups.com



Lynday,

> I noticed that the word document I uploaded doesn't
> have the
> PageBuilder picture next to it under file
> manager...is that a problem?

No, it'll probably have a little pencil by it.

--- lilrainone <lilrainone@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Rick...I managed to get the word document uploaded
> by getting rid of
> the spaces in the file name.  Now what is happening
> is that when I go
> to my web site under PageBuilder and create a link
> to that document
> it does it when I preview it and everything, but
> when I go to look at
> the site later out of PageBuilder, the link goes to
> something else I
> had originally sent it to.  I went back and made
> sure I had saved my
> work on the new link to the word document and saved
> it again and
> again, but still when you go to my site on your own
> it links you to
> something else.
> --Lyndsay

First, your browser stores a copy of the webpage for
faster viewing.  It's supposed to check for updates,
but you may be looking at the old version of the page.
When you at www.geocities.com/lilrainone/, hit the
reload button, and you'll have the latest version you
uploaded.

Next, your links to the other sites are working, so
you've at least got the basics.

Under the File Manager, how many files do you have?
When I follow your link to your posts, I see a page
named "postings.html" that's blank.  Make sure the
document you uploaded didn't get renamed
"postings.txt" or something.  If you saved it in HTML,
it should be called "somethingorother.html".  You can
rename it in the file manager, preferrably to
"postings.html" which is what your page points to
already.

Remember, you are not alone on the Internet.
Everyone's had problems, and many of them have written
about theirs.  Try www.deja.com, and search for
postings about stuff like this.

Keep trying,
Rick

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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 05:55:13 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Site on Religions of the World and other Stats
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com



http://www.geohive.com/global/religion_top.php

This is a break down of the religions of the world.  The main site,
www.geohive.com, is a great collection of data.

Non-Religious & Atheist - 20%, not bad, one out of five.
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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 22:28:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Re: religion and science
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com 



--------------------------------------------
Pascal's wager

Practical argument for belief in God formulated by B.
Pascal. In his Pensées (1657-58), Pascal posed the
following argument to show that religious belief is
reasonable: If God does not exist, the agnostic loses
little by believing in him and gains correspondingly
little by not believing. If God does exist, the
agnostic gains eternal life by believing in him and
loses an infinite good by not believing.
--------------------------------------------

OK, I don't believe in deities.  And even if I thought
I should believe, just to be on the safe side, what am
I supposed to do, delude myself?

I have a better suggestion: be the best person you can
be, treat others well and think of them before
yourself.  If you've left the world a better place,
any god that can't forgive you for not believing is an
asshole.

--Rick
/**************************************/
A finite being does not deserve to be worshiped.
An infinite being would not demand to be worshiped.

--- livn2rip <livn2rip@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- In msacphilosophygroup@y..., "eopsstudent"
> <eopsstudent@y...> 
> wrote:
> > Religion is something people believe on some great
> power. People 
> > want to be free, free of worries, free of
> financial, free of dying; 
> > they want to know the truth behind all living
> things. Where they 
> > came from and where are they are going after they
> have done their 
> > duties. People did not have the answer to these
> questions. Both 
> > religion and science try to look for the answer,
> but religion is 
> > based on superstitious beliefs and science is
> based on experiments. 
> > Personally, I believe in God therefore my point of
> view on science 
> > is that people are try to become God by trying to
> find the truth. 
> If 
> > God want us to become like him there will be gods
> all over the 
> > place. We should do best in our lives by obeying
> God's words and 
> > hoping for someday, He could take us to the where
> He live
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I attest to this matter.  I do not blame scientist
> though for trying 
> to find the truth, for trying to find where we came
> from how this 
> whole thing got started.  Scientists themselves will
> tell you that 
> most of their theories are full of holes, missing
> parts just like the 
> dinosaur skeletons that we see in meuseums all
> around,  not one has 
> all bones preserved, they are only pieces of a
> structure and 
> scientist (to the best of their ablities) complete
> the rest of the 
> fossil themselves.  The same can be said about
> religion though.  
> There is many things left to the "supernatural"
> explenation,  you 
> really can't phisically prove some of those events
> but you can't 
> disprove them as well.  I say this, what do you have
> to lose in 
> believing in God, if believing in Him will get you
> to "Heaven" 
> (eternal life in paradise) then go for it, you do
> not have anything 
> to lose but only eternity to gain, when I die I do
> not want to be 
> caugth with my pants down, I do not want to say,
> "shit He really does 
> exist" by then I'll be phucked.  So if I do what I
> can and believe in 
> my heart and try to follow some of the guidelines of
> that certain 
> religion and pass my 60 years here, then I will get
> to see. At least 
> I know that by believing I have that "get out of
> jail free" card in 
> my back pocket.
> 
> 

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To: laneonline@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 20:36:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [Lane Online] Re: web site construction
Reply-to: laneonline@yahoogroups.com



No problem about asking questions. Here we go:
Files on the internet can't have names like they do on
your computer.  For example, you can call a file "My
Philosophy Page.doc" on your desktop, but webpages
can't have spaces in the name or characters like &#$*,
etc., or you won't be able to upload it or view it.
The best way to avoid this is only use letters and no
spaces, like "philosophy.html".

In MS Word you can go to File->Save As and select type
as HTML.  Give the page a one word name (ex: "posts")
and Word should add the .html extension.  Try to make
HTML files rather than Word documents, that way it's
more likely they'll be readable on the 'net.

Another way is to make a new subdirectory, and upload
a file with the name index.html.  But first, I would
try correcting your file names, and getting them to
upload.

Once you can get files onto your site, you can start
dealing with links and other stuff.

Keep trying,
Rick

--- lilrainone <lilrainone@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rick, thank you for the info you sent earlier about
> building a site. 
> I have, yet, one more question....I noticed that on
> your site under
> your "post" link, you have your posts pasted on what
> looks like
> Microsoft Word.  I have done the same thing and
> created a link from
> my web page to another web page for my posts.  What
> I need to know is
> how to get the stuff from Microsoft Word onto the
> post page I have
> created.  Geocities says to upload the file from
> Microsoft Word onto
> my file manager for my web page.  Whenever I do that
> it says invalid
> file name.  The help on that says that the invalid
> file name is due
> to something or other.  What's wrong??
>
> Sorry to bother you again, but you're one of the few
> who I think
> know's what they're doing...
>
> --Lyndsay
>
>


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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 12:50:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Lorena - Website info
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com



Lorena,
  I posted this to the other group, and it may help
you.  FYI - you can also use Microsoft Word to create
webpages, and if you're using Netscape, you may have
Composer installed, which is a fairly straight-forward
tool to use.  You can do a lot through cut and paste.

-- Rick

--- Rick Wagner <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> wrote:

Try this geocities help area
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/geo/.
It has answers for most of the questions you're going
to ask.  Basically, you need to know how to get into
the editor (I suggest using the basic one), and then
cut and paste your messages into the body of your
page. Or you can add a bunch of links to the messages,
but that will probably take longer.

Good Luck,
Rick

--- "Ramirez,Lorena R" <Lorena.R.Ramirez@kp.org>
wrote:
> How did you add any information to your website. I
> am going crazy trying to
> do this.
> 
>
> Lorena R. Ramirez
> Kaiser Permanente
> Dept. Of Psychiatry
> (626)856-3011
> Note: This transmission may contain confidential
> information which is
> legally privileged or otherwise protected.  This
> information is intended
> only for the use of the individual or entity named
> above.  If you are not
> the intended recipient, or the person responsible
> for receiving and/or
> delivering it to the intended recipient, you are
> hereby notified that any
> disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of any
> information contained in
> this transmission is strictly prohibited.  If you
> have received this
> transmission in error, please immediately notify the
> sender by telephone and
> return the original transmission to the sender.
> Thank you.
>
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: eopsstudent [mailto:eopsstudent@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:02 PM
> To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] (unknown)
>
>
> I added one useful site to my web page under my
> favorite site.
> My web address is
> http://www.geocities.com/eopsstudent/philosophy.html
>
<http://www.geocities.com/eopsstudent/philosophy.html >
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor     
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
> 
>
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>
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>


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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> |  Block Address  | Add to Address Book
Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 12:42:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Re: Disappointment in Looking at Philosophy
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com



When we ask "What is real?" or "How can we know god?",
we are looking for UNIVERSAL truths.  By looking into
how other cultures, religions, nations, answer these
questions, we may be able to find a "common thread"
running through all of them.

For example, Baba Faqir Chand's words rebel against
his culture by claiming that gurus sell themselves as
the gatekeepers to enlightenment.  Chand believed he
was an aid to knowledge, not a requirement.  Martin
Luther told the Catholic Church that years ago, and
then he had to run for his life.

Unless we assume that reality varies from person to
person, group to group, the questions we raise should
have answers that are the same for all humanity.  The
greater the portion of humanity that we learn about,
the more overlap we'll find.

--Rick



--- r_allende <r_allende@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have "Looking at Philosophy" and "Does the Center
> Hold" by Palmer.
>
> He clearly states that the books are Introductions
> to WESTERN
> Philosophy.
>
> I know that Eastern philosophers were the first to
> study "consciousness" and I know about the Buddha
> and Confucius but
> what can Eastern Philosophy teach us? 
>
> What are the reasons for reading Indian Gurus?
>
>
>
> --- In msacphilosophygroup@y..., "guardianlxxii"
> <guardianlxxii@y...>
> wrote:
> > Having completed reading Donald Palmer's Looking
> at Philosophy, I
> can
> > say that the book accomplishes its goal, the
> presentation of Western
> > thought in a humorous way.  Palmer covers a lot of
> ground, many
> ideas,
> > and does a good job of profiling several thinkers
> from each era.
> >
> > But I must express disappointment in one aspect of
> the book--its
> focus
> > on only WESTERN thought.  It would be more
> educating to see the
> > development of other schools of thought in
> Eastern, and look for any
> > commonality.  Looking at Philosophy is not trying
> to answer any
> > questions other than, "who thought what," but I
> think I see the
> > reasons for the readings on the Indian Gurus.
> >
> > --Rick
>
>


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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 21:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [MSAC Philosophy Group] My opinion
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

So you believe everything you're taught?
--Rick
--- amber23marie <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> Just thought I'd share my opinion of philosophy with
> you all. It kind
> of seems like philosophy all came about with one guy
> thinking he is a
> rebel and saying some random thing that challenges
> tradition and
> the "norm" claiming that he is right so he preaches
> it to people. Its
> just seems like its a twisted way of thinking.
> Rather than accepting
> what we are taught they decide to challange it and
> come up with a
> different reason or different theory.
>
>


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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 04:50:52 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Complete works of Plato
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

This is not the only site with the complete works of Plato, and it
doesn't have much about Plato.  But then, it does have a cool name.
http://www.cyberplato.org/plato.html
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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 04:42:53 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Disappointment in Looking at Philosophy
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

Having completed reading Donald Palmer's Looking at Philosophy, I can
say that the book accomplishes its goal, the presentation of Western
thought in a humorous way.  Palmer covers a lot of ground, many ideas,
and does a good job of profiling several thinkers from each era.

But I must express disappointment in one aspect of the book--its focus
on only WESTERN thought.  It would be more educating to see the
development of other schools of thought in Eastern, and look for any
commonality.  Looking at Philosophy is not trying to answer any
questions other than, "who thought what," but I think I see the
reasons for the readings on the Indian Gurus.

--Rick
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To: laneonline@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 16:54:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [Lane Online] web site construction - With Link
Reply-to: laneonline@yahoogroups.com

Sorry, the link didn't stay.

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/geo/

--- Rick Wagner <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Lyndsay,
>   Try this geocities help area.  It has answers for
> most of the questions you're going to ask.
> Basically, you need to know how to get into the
> editor (I suggest using the basic one), and then cut
> and paste your messages into the body of your page.
> Or you can add a bunch of links to the messages, but
> that will probably take longer.
>
> Good Luck,
> Rick
>
> --- lilrainone
>  wrote:
> > Will someone please help me figure out how to post
> my postings on my website?  I'm using geocities.
> Please?!
> >
> > Thank you--Lyndsay
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


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To: laneonline@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 16:46:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [Lane Online] web site construction
Reply-to: laneonline@yahoogroups.com

Lyndsay,
  Try this geocities help area.  It has answers for most of the questions you're going to ask.  Basically, you need to know how to get into the editor (I suggest using the basic one), and then cut and paste your messages into the body of your page.  Or you can add a bunch of links to the messages, but that will probably take longer.

Good Luck,
Rick

--- lilrainone
wrote:
> Will someone please help me figure out how to post my postings on my website?  I'm using geocities. Please?!
>
> Thank you--Lyndsay



---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 23:28:49 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Re: Berkley - Russell_ Looking@Phil.
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

> As for Marx, i just have one question to help clarify his
> philosophies for me. Hae communist states ever started wars? Or are
> they just the ones always being persecuted? [. . .]
> Amy Wasson

Amy,
  Democracy is not innocent.  But neither is Communism.  And the only
person who gets to decide who "started" the war is the one who writes
the history (usually the winner).  And though idealogy can be twisted,
the link and encyclopedia entry below are an example of one of the
worst cases--I'm sure the victims would say it was the worst.
--Rick Wagner

Meet the Khmer Rouge

Cambodian Genocide
http://www.yale.edu/cgp/

From Britannica
(French: "Red Khmer") Radical communist movement that ruled Cambodia
1975-79. The Khmer Rouge, under the leadership of Pol Pot, opposed the
government of the popular Norodom Sihanouk. They gained support after
Sihanouk was toppled by Lon Nol (1970) and after U.S. forces bombed
the countryside in the early 1970s. In 1975 the Khmer Rouge ousted Lon
Nol. Their extraordinarily brutal regime led to deaths from
starvation, hardship, and executions that may have reached 2 million.
Overthrown in 1979 by the Vietnamese, they retreated to remote areas
and continued their struggle for power in Cambodia. The last Khmer
Rouge guerrillas surrendered in 1998.
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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 07:23:40 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Science, Religion, Pseudoscience--Peacocke & Barbour
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

I have included two links, both as part of my classwork, and hopefully
to aid us in discussing science and religion, rather than arguing
about it.

While we all need to make up our own minds about what we want to
believe, others have spent a long time debating the same thing.  I
take the stand that science begins where faith ends.  The less you are
willing to accept on faith, the more you will be able to question your
world.

The issues being covered by the respected thinkers of today are not
miracles and evolution.  They've put those to rest.  What philosophers
like Peacocke and Barbour discuss is more along the lines of "did God
kick off the Big Bang?"  They're really not arguing much about the
events after the first second or so.

<a href="http://www.ctinquiry.org/publications/peacocke.htm ">Science &
the Future of Theology—Critical Issues</a>
This is a link to an article by Dr. Arthur Peacocke.  Dr. Peacocke has
devoted more than 25 years to exploring the relation of science to
theology.  The focus in this article shows the depth of thought that
has gone into this issue.

Another key thinker in the relationship of science and religion is Ian
Barbour.  He came up with four way of religion to relate to science:
conflict, independence, dialog, and integration.  His <a
href="http://www.templeton.org/archives/IB-statement.asp ">statement</a>
while accepting the 1999 Templeton Prize for Progess in Religion
spells out his views.  Well worth reading.

--Rick
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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 16:54:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Is this what Philosophy all about?
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

--- alphaoide <joshuals@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Does Philosophy merely conclude what other fields of
> study--from
> spiritual things to calculus--discovered?

It's not entirely appropriate to say the philosophy
concludes what has been discovered in other fields.
The label "philosopher" seems often to be given
post-mortem--to a person who was working in another
field.  Pythagoras, Plato, Berkeley, Descartes,
Liebniz, Anaxagoras, Anaximander, Kant, Heraclitur,
Hobbes, Russel, Zeno, William of Occam, all of these
men we call philosophers contributed greatly to the
development of calculus, and other areas. 

> Reading "Looking at the Philosophy", I notice that
> philosophers have
> just been being articulate in reasoning one
> particular issue, just
> like the battle in a court, the one with better
> supports and
> arguments will eventually prevail.

As victims of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, we
can never be sure of everything.  So maybe we should
be glad that some of these thinker were able to give
us insight into any aspect of our realm.  I can
respect a theory based on the strength of its reason,
not the number of its adherents.

All knowledge builds upon previous knowledge.  So, as
to what philosophy is, perhaps it is a way of defining
the world, a way for interpreting knowledge.  But I'd
wait for the dust of Poststructularism to settle
before I made up my mind.

The next phase of philosophical thought will likely be
called the Grand Unifying Mother of All Thought as to
What the Hell Are We Doing Here.  Or GUMOATATWTHAWDoHe
for short.



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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 07:24:24 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Los Dos Gurus
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

Bhagavan Ramana & Baba Faqir Chand

Who is The Wanderling?

This is not a summary of what I read, this is my thoughts on what I
read. I have a funny feeling Dr. Lane is not trying to make sure that
we read the material, rather that we thought about the material.

Sri Ramana Maharshi and Baba Faqir Chand were contemporaries, which
makes their comparison appropriate, and enlightening (no pun meant).
We are not looking at the old and the new, but two men from the same
time. Both are highly revered, occassionally by the same people, but
their premises vary hugely.

The immediate difference I note between the two "spiritual leaders" is
their perspective of the role of a guru. Sri Ramana fits almost
perfectly into my stereotypical Western image of a guru (and my
atheist image of all "spiritual leaders." His quote: "In truth, God
and the Guru are not different," strike me as setting gurus up as a
requirement for enlightenment. There's an interview with Ramana here
< http://www.hinduism.co.za/guru.htm >.  In it, he gets questioned about
his own development, which was without a guru, he sidesteps with a
statement about the multiple forms of a guru.

Baba Faqir Chand, on the contrary, has a more practical aspect about
him (at least from my reading). He line regarding how he would have
deceived us had he set himself up as a necessity, flies in the face of
Ramana's claims.

This is the glaring difference between the two men. Bhagavan Ramana
represents the traditional guru, while Chand stands alone in his
honesty. The rest of my thoughts are below, seperated by the
respective individual.

/*Bhagavan Ramana************************************/
Questions, questions . . .

While reading the story of Ramana, I began to wonder about the
similarities in attributes assigned to "holy men." Is it this
"otherwordliness" that attribute to spiritual wisdom? For the most
part, the beginning of Bhagavan Ramana's story is that of a boy
running away from home. The author tries to present it as a great
journey, but I by the time he had gotten his head shaved, I was
thinking "what a teenager!"

His choice of where to run to was interesting, but it leads me to ask,
"are places holy?" I know that many cultures claim them to be, but are
they assign a value to the lore about the place, or is there actually
something going on there that would draw people to it? If you go to a
holy site, and feel that its holy, that can chalked up to previous
knowledge and expectation. But if a thousand years from now someone
stands in the middle of field and gets freaked out, only to learn
later that they were standing at Ground Zero in Hiroshima, that's
different.

So he sits and meditates all day. I have to say, that if I was
meditating all day, I had better come up with some spiritual insights.
He does try to focus on the meaning of self, very much a Descarte "I
am" kind of thing. As regards his "death" experience, I wonder if our
culture prevents us from having episodes like that, or if you do, do
you become David Koresh or Oral Roberts?

"The part of wisdom therefore is to stay quiet." That was his deep way
of telling his mother to quit crying. For a guru, he was a typical
teenager. Later he became more compassionate (ex: when his mother was
ill).

He was accepted as a guru, because he had the traits of a wise man.
Unlike our culture, where we would have asked to see his guru license;
they judged him by his deeds. And he did not set out to become a
leader, just to meditate. Despite my reservations about his start, I
do respect that.

His view on the seperation of the mind from the body is a bit
disturbing, though. If we're better off removing our conciousness from
the physical realm, is there any point in continuing?

And if it really is the true goal of humanity to sit around and
meditate, what I need to know is: Who the fuck is going to feed us?

/*Baba Faqir Chand**********************************/
I was a bit concerned while reading the introduction, and was relieved
when noting that this was not a promotion of the supernatural. The
continuous references to bilocation support Chand's argument, but for
a while I was starting I would have to stare into my navel and have an
OBE to go get a refund from the bursar. My poor narrow Western mind
just couldn't accept that.

I have no idea whether or not I would have liked Chand as a person,
but I like the ideas he promoted. He should have taken a cue from
Martin Luther and found a nearby temple to posts his ideas to the door
of. He seems to have dealt with the same stagnation and selfishness
that occur in Catholicism amd his focus on the needs of the people
gives value to his words.

Chand's desire to live his own life as ethically as he could strikes a
chord in me. "When these gurus themselves have disobedient and
characterless children, and when they themselves do not have good
relations with their wives, how do you think that they would do any
good to you?"

And I love the analogy of the woman in the bazaar. Should we be proud
of that which is given us by nature? Are we allowed pride in that
which we have achieved? Where does humility end and conceit begin?

My respect for the work of Baba Faqir Chand stems from my distrust of
organized religion. Chand's willingness to stand up for what he
believed, even though it went against the word of the day, earns my
admiration--particularly because he advocated the role of the
individual in the path to awakening.


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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 11:13:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [MSAC Philosophy Group] about manifestation
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

I agree with the concept that manifestations are
purely a product of the individual's mind, unless
there is empirical evidence to the contrary.  As Dr.
Lane pointed out in his introduction to "The Unknowing
Sage," the manifestations are limited to a set of
individuals, or memes, known to the person creating
the manifestation. 

Sawan Singh said:
     Every time He gives the initiation to anyone, He
creates an Astral Image of Himself in the disciple.
And from then on, the Master never leaves the
disciple. The Double, or Other Self, or Image of the
Master is sometimes what we call the Inner Master.

I would suggest that term "Image of the Master" is
accurate at describing the memories a person retains
to define an idea.  I'll go further to say that
attributed manifestations are a focus on the idea of
the Master, not the presence of the Master.

In times of need, particularly when hope is failing,
we turn to ideas that represent a power beyond this
world.  I am unsurprised that a trouble person would
generate an image of their Guru in times of stress.
They assign a Guru powers greater than their own, and
so would look to the Master for aid.

What I want to see is Shirley Dobson coming out of a
prayer screaming, "Oh, shit!  I saw some Indian man.
He said I have made claims of my greatness and got
myself worshipped by you and exploited you."

--Rick

--- alphaoide <joshuals@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The article "The Unknowing Sage..." explains that
> manifestations,
> visions, and forms are mental illusion.
> Would it be possible to liken the occurence of
> manifestation and
> such to dreams?
> Because it's often we dream about something that has
> been
> preoccupying our minds.
> I kind of agree with Faqir that miracles that
> happened were products
> of either the devotee's previous karma or intense
> faith.
> Sometimes in an drug-related experiment, a placebo
> group is
> presented as the subjects. This group will be given
> a pill or sort
> of and never know that it is a mere sugar pill.
> However some people
> in this group will say that they feel better after
> taking the pill.
>
>


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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 00:08:01 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Thoughts on Plato and Looking at Philosophy
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

The first thing that struck me about the website on Plato was how it
presented Plate as a person, rather than just through his
accomlishments.  We are told not just told WHAT Plato thought, but
perhaps WHY he thought it.  The Psychology of a Philosopher.  The
origins of an idea can often be more revealing than the idea itself.
Perhaps not in Plato's case, since his thoughts are so critical to our
culture.  Would Plato have had his powerful ideas, and the motivation
to educate, without the strife he lived through?

Though Palmer spends some time looking at the same things, he is
forced to gloss over much of the motivations of later philososphers in
return for saving space.  But, to him credit, I hadn't connected the
execution of Socates to Plato's Cave analogy.  That provides an
interesting perspective.  Nothing like the image of an enlightened
person getting beaten to death by the ignorant to get your attention.
Probably why Heinlein used it to end Stranger in a Strange Land.

As regards Socrates, again I am struck by the similarities to Jesus.
Socrates refused to stop proselytizing because he was guided by the
voice of his God, and was later executed for this.

To take Plato's influence on Western myth further, Palmer points out
the connection of Plato's "Forms" and the Christian concept of God and
Heaven.  If the polytheists of his day had known what he was kicking
off, Plato would have had his own cup of hemlock.

I think Plato was a great coincidence.  He was a great and independant
thinker with the benefit of literacy; and who was fortuneate enough to
study under Socrates.  His family's wealth surely aided him in
founding the Academy, and as another person in this group pointed out
earlier, he could have done far worse with his wealth.

More on Palmer.
In order to satisfy my curiosity about the origins of humanism, I
skipped around in Looking at Philosophy, and and headed to the
Continentals.  Their debates seem to a huge load of the "intellectual
masturbation" we engage in at coffeehouses late at night.  Much of
their efforts were geared at proving they exist.  They also seem to
have an innate need to prove God exists.  I wonder if their culture
made them WANT God to exist, and therefore they needed to prove it, or
else their personal world, values, beliefs, begin to fall apart on them.

My note on morality and God.
Even in Plato's day, belief in deities was assign moral value.  But as
Clarence Darrow pointed out:  "There is no crime of thought;
there are only crimes of action."  In others, you are not judged by
what you think, rather what you do.  Plato dealt with the issue,
probably as a result of the Sophist Critias (one of the Thirty
Tyrants), and had this say:
"For though a man should be a complete unbeliever in the being of
gods; if he also has a native uprightness of temper, such persons will
detest evil in men; their repugnance to wrong disinclines them to
commit wrongful acts; they shun the unrighteous and are drawn to the
upright."

I prefer this view far greater than I do the Bible saying:
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not
believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the
name of God's one and only Son."  John 3:18

I really can't abide by a "belief requirement" to get through the
gates.  What if you have to be a Baptist to get into Heaven?  Does
that mean Mother Theresa and Ghandi got carded, and had to turn back? 
Jonas Salk? 
"Cured polio," says Kali, "that's good, but what do you have to say
for yourself about those hamburgers?"

If Han Solo is in Episode III, who's going to play him, Keanu Reeves?

To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 23:23:23 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Re: Help Please!
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

I took this straight off the syllabus.  I would suggest making a page
for the postings you do for the class, and a page for a personal
interest.  Later you can add a page for the tests and other ideas.

/****From syllabus********************/
Developing your OWN website.

As there are no "typical" tests in this class, there is also no
"typical" term papers.

Each student instead is required to build their own website during the
semester, focusing on a particular theme in philosophy as well as an
enjoyable sidelight (that may be entirely related to your own personal
interests and far from formal philosophy).

Your website should contain ALL of the work you have done in this
class, including all your posts and all of your essays/critical
insights/hyperlinks, etc.


--- In msacphilosophygroup@y..., "lady91741" <lady91741@y...> wrote:
> I don't know if my last message worked.  Will someone write me back
> and let me know what exactly we're supposed to include in our
> website.  What are we supposed to base it one, can it be on
> anything?  I'm a little confused.
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To: laneonline@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 23:15:51 -0000
Subject: [Lane Online] New Website - My Apologies
Reply-to: laneonline@yahoogroups.com

I've moved my webpage for this class onto my website.  I was having
trouble getting geocities to display some of my pages.  I hope this
doesn't cause any great disturbance.

Anyways, the new page is
   www.guardian72.com/homework/PHILO5/

  Thanks
  Rick Wagner
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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 19:45:18 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Biblical Languages
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

Since very few people consider the languages the New Testament was
written in, it's worth pointing out that it was written in Greek and
Aramaic.  Particularly we discuss the similarities of Plato's Forms to
the ideas of Heaven and God, and the story of Jesus and Socrates.

Interestingly, Aramaic was more prevalent in southwest Asia, and was
later replaced by Arabic.  Makes you wonder how the Aramaic scriptures
may have influenced Islam (since the language was used in the Old
Testament along with Hebrew).

--Rick
To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:53:34 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Re: Roman Catholic Beliefs
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

By resorting to faith (firm belief in something for which there is no
proof-see below), you end all further discussion.

www.m-w.com
Main Entry: 1faith
Pronunciation: 'fAth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin
fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE
Date: 13th century
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to
one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the
traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something
for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction;
especially : a system of religious beliefs
synonym see BELIEF
- in faith : without doubt or question : VERILY

--- In msacphilosophygroup@y..., "Ramirez,Lorena R"
<Lorena.R.Ramirez@k...> wrote:
> You wrote:
> .  What proof has anyone found that
> Jesus is the son of God?  Or did he really die on the cross? We just
> assume that because of writings (ie. the bible) based on what the
> people saw.  We can also say that without pseudo science there would
> be no religion. 
> 
> We don't need proof, It's all about faith. And yes, Jesus is the Son
of God.
> 
>
> 
>
> Lorena R. Ramirez
>
>
> 
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Teri Oronoz [mailto:toronoz@y...]
> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 10:14 AM
> To: msacphilosophygroup@y...
> Subject: Re: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Re: Roman Catholic Beliefs
>
>
>
> I think that people shape certain beliefs ( religious,
non-religious), to
> make themselves feel better about themeselves and others. They kind
of use
> it as their scape goat. Well whatever the reason, if it makes you feel
> better than so be it. : )
>   gplorenzo <gplorenzo@y...> wrote: i agree that mosts religions are
> based on beliefs rather than fact,
> therefore being pseudo science.  What proof has anyone found that
> Jesus is the son of God?  Or did he really die on the cross? We just
> assume that because of writings (ie. the bible) based on what the
> people saw.  We can also say that without pseudo science there would
> be no religion. 
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> msacphilosophygroup-unsubscribe@y...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> msacphilosophygroup-unsubscribe@y...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> < http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > .
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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:47:25 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] My bias, and a Website.
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

Since we've kicked off the great "Is the Bible the Word of God?"
debate, I thought I'd take a lead from our professor, and point out my
bias, I'm a secular humanist.  Note I use the lower case wording,
since I want to distinguish myself as someone who beliefs the ideas of
humanism as they apply to this world, not as a member of a group of
secular humanists.

The humanist thought that around today is a bit different from the
"What can we know?" version that we're reading about in the humorous
Philosophy book.  I think this website is very appropriate to the
current debate and to show how concepts evolve, and the meaning of
terms may change over time.

The following is quoted from the website as general definition of
secular humanism, for more please go to www.secularhumanism.org

--Rick

Secular Humanism is a term which has come into use in the last thirty
years to describe a world view with the following elements and principles:

    * A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether
religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each
individual and not simply accepted on faith.

    * Commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence, and
scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in
seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human
questions.

    * A primary concern with fulfillment, growth, and creativity for
both the individual and humankind in general.

    * A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding
that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect
perception of it.

    * A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful
through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our
intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who
differ from us.

    * A search for viable individual, social and political principles
of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human
well-being and individual responsibility.

    * A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas,
good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better
world for ourselves and our children.
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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "Rick Wagner" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:35:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RE: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Re: observations on Plato
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

If you believe that the Bible is the word of God, then
it follows that anything the apostles wrote about
Jesus is a perfect representation of what Jesus was,
or did.

If however, you see the Bible as a work of Men, then
you  accept the possibility that the apostles'
writings may have been influenced by previous ideas.
Even though Jesus may have been the Son of God, and
chosen his Mark, John, Luke, etc., what they wrote
about him (which is all we know), may be more a
creation of the apostles' minds than of fact.

From there you can look at the similarities of
Socrates condemnation for leading the youth astray,
and his willingness to sacrifice himself to a higher
ideal, and the story of Jesus.

Or maybe God gave the rest of the world Socrates, so
that we could have a guide.

--- "Ramirez,Lorena R" <Lorena.R.Ramirez@kp.org>
wrote:
> Jesus , is not a character. and he was not created
> by the apostles. Jesus is
> the one who chose the apostles. .

/***********************************************/
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my
education."
-Mark Twain 

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To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 06:16:01 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Re: observations on Plato
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

Do you see any resemblance between the character Socrates created by
Plato, and the character Jesus created by the apostles?

To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 06:10:21 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Re: internet reading
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

--- In msacphilosophygroup@y..., "alphaoide" <joshuals@h...> wrote:
> --- In msacphilosophygroup@y..., "yette_ben" <yette_ben@y...> wrote:
> > The internet reading on The Unknowing Sage is not connected.  I
> > cannot get access to it.  Please let me know if anyone was able to
> > access it.  Thank you.
> like our prof said, go to google.com and search for the reading
> i did it and found many of them, if you still don't know how to do
> it i'll post one of the adresses you can go to

Have you found a complete version of The Unknowing Sage?

To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 06:07:50 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] BCE, CE, BC, AD
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

The abbreviations BC and AD stand for "Before Christ" and "Anno
Domini" (Year of Our Lord), respectively.

Since this is very Christian/Western way of looking at the calendar,
many have taken to using the terms BCE and CE, for "Before Common Era"
and, as you may guess, "Common Era."

If somebody's about to pipe up with "AD stands for After Death," make
sure you tell everyone how to account for the years After Christ and
Before Death.

To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 21:01:13 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Hyperlinks, and other internet trivia
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

Hello there,
  I'm going to try to give a little insight into the functioning of
web browsers (Internet Explorer, Netscape, etc.) and e-mail programs
(Outlook, Eudora, etc.).
  To start with, a site from the founders, the National Center for
Supercomputing Applications, this a beginners guide to HTML
  http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/General/Internet/WWW/index.html

  When you type an address for something, for example,
http://www.deltalink.com/dodson/html/puzzle.html, it's just an address
to a web page.  You type, or cut and paste the address into the
address bar of your browser, hit "Go", and you go to the site.
  In HTML, hyper text markup language, you can take a word, a
sentence, a picture, whatever, and assign an address to it.  When the
browser "reads" the link, it displays the word, sentence, etc., in a
different format, often a blue underline.  You click on the underline,
and the browser goes to the address that's linked to it.
  So now you want to post an address to this group.  All you really
need to do is type, or cut and paste, the address from your address
bar into the message.  If you tell me your website is www.ford.com, I
can type that into my browser and go to it.
  Often the browsers or email programs will turn address like
http://www.cnn.com, or email dubya@ovaloffice.com into links so that
you just need to click on them.  So they show up as hyperlinks.
  Now, if you're building your website, the site you're using,
geocities, yahoo, tripod, often has a tool that will help you set up
the page, and add links.
  The punch line--don't worry about it.  Type the address, and send it
off.

Good Luck,
Rick

To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 18:07:20 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Re: How to find post
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

If you're just trying to find a message, you could search the archives
for keywords, like "quantum" or "relativity."  Or you can just browse
through the messages, looking for a subject that catches your eye.

Rick

--- In msacphilosophygroup@y..., "weddmay03" <weddmay03@y...> wrote:
> How do i find out how to find one post that is "pseudo" scientific on
> this group page?  It is an assignment for the 1st week of Critical
> Thinking

/*************************************************/
You can lead a student to knowledge, but you can not
make them think.
--Heinlein

To: laneonline@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 17:59:38 -0000
Subject: [Lane Online] Re: HELP ME
Reply-to: laneonline@yahoogroups.com

Go to the syllabus at
http://vclass.mtsac.edu:940/dlane/2002philosophysummer.htm

I had to read it all the way through to get a clear picture (I hope)
of the requirements.  Most of our posts about the websites we find,
our opinions, etc., are to be on the msacphilosophygroup.  Certain
others, like our web address, are to this group, laneonline.  I
suspect Dr. Lane uses this group for all his classes, and we're all
supposed to rant in the other.

We are supposed to monitor the other groups, and butt in as
appropriate, but most out required postings go in the msacphilosophygroup.

You may also want to browse the previous postings in these groups.
Other students haved likely been in the same predicament, you may
benefit from questions they've asked.

Good Luck
Rick Wagner

--- In laneonline@y..., "jeanniex81" <jeanniex81@y...> wrote:
> i don't know about you guys but i don't know what i'm doing.  are we
> suppose to post all our responses on here or the other clubs?  i am
> so lost.  someone please help me.  i need to pass this class

To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 07:01:57 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] First Site This Week
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

  I had posted this site as a reply to someone asking about Zeno's
paradox.  I am reposting it as my first website of the week.

  Zeno's argument ties into calculus.  The Greeks had no definition of
the infinitesimal.  In other words, they hadn't defined a "point", a
fundemental concept for later mathematics.  This site presents the
solution as mathematical answer, which is a more appropriate
perspective on the puzzle.  I like the site for its simplicity and
straighforward presentation, and the more in depth look available.
  If you're scratching your head and wondering how Achilles could beat
the tortoise, check out this site for the paradox and an answer.

http://www.deltalink.com/dodson/html/puzzle.html
Rick Wagner
Philo V

/*******************************************************/
The Master tells the Student:  "What you Believe is Real for you."
The Student tries to fly.
The Master has one less final to grade.

To: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 06:30:44 -0000
Subject: [MSAC Philosophy Group] Broken Link - iguild off-line
Reply-to: msacphilosophygroup@yahoogroups.com

Hello all,
  One of the assigned internet readings has a broken link.  Normally
this means that whomever typed it (Dr.Lane) made an error in syntax.
In this case it's a bit worse, the domain that was hosting the book is
off-line.  This usually indicates failure to renew their domain name,
or a very new site.

Anyways, the work in question is:
THE UKNOWING SAGE: the life and work of Baba Faqir Chand

I have found a partial excerpt of the book on the following page.  At
least we can get some of the reading done until the site comes back
on-line.

http://www.geocities.com/truthis_myname/faqir/faqir-home.html

Bye

To: laneonline@yahoogroups.com
From: "guardianlxxii" <guardianlxxii@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 22:39:12 -0000
Subject: [Lane Online] Re: clearfication any one
Reply-to: laneonline@yahoogroups.com

  Jeno's argument ties into calculus.  The Greeks had no definition of
the infinitesimal.  In other words, they hadn't defined a "point", a
fundemental concept for later mathematics.
  Check out this site for the paradox and an answer.

http://www.deltalink.com/dodson/html/puzzle.html


--- In laneonline@y..., "eopsstudent" <eopsstudent@y...> wrote:
> As i was reading "looking at philosophy"
> jeno argued that no one can arrive any where. he used example of race
> between turtle and human. what does he realy trying to say here. is
> he trying to say that we do not move or we move but does not arrive
> any where.